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Re: The realisation

Post by neha on 2014-02-08, 13:59

sandhya wrote:
neha wrote:
sandhya wrote:Neha
Is there anything else you know about that mistake and the coldness in their relationship?

How is Ruqaiya portrayed in various books?

The net talks well of her though.

Is the mistake mentioned in just one book or many?

Sandhya, the wiki page and its references talk about Ruqaiya's importance as an Empress...but again the page has info from Indu Sunderesan's fictional work hence I don't think net is helpful...you will not get any info regarding Akbar-Ruq's private life on net....I gathered numerous books from British Library but had to return them as I could not get time to read all of them...till date I've read about this Ruq's unknown mistake in only one novel...it says Akbar got very much angry but could not punish her as she was a Shehzadi and an Empress too! but he did not visit her palace as a husband after that incident....He did forgive her in later years and she too was on good terms with him and Salim hence he trusted her with Khurram when she herself asked for the infant child(some says a soothsayer predicted her Khurram's future but I don't know if that was true  Rolling Eyes )...On her request he agreed not including this in any of Abul Fazl's work..Now I suppose if this was at all true then it is possibly related to court matters and politics as Abul Fazl was not allowed to include Akbar's or any of his family members private matters in AkbarNama...

Thanks for the info Neha..........
But making a mistake in court matters and politics shouldn't deter him from entering her palace as a husband..........right. Somehow the very concept of sidelining Ruqaiya makes me feel uncomfortable. Not for her sake but it doesn't speak well of Jalal's character. To throw away a childhood friend, who has only you for the world, just because you have found another loveable partner you like better............ No . If Jodha never came into Jalal's life, would he ever sideline Ruqaiya.

If there was even a slight inference to butcher Ruqaiya, the CVs wouldn't hesitate to milk it to the maximum here. Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad 

The serial Ruqaiya will be sidelined no doubt! as this story is about Akbar-MUZ, but dunno how logically and gently CVs handle this  Rolling Eyes ....but Sandhya the way this show has portrayed Akbar-Ruq relationship, I've never found it in anywhere (The Twentieth wife is a fictional work!) ...they have shown her feeling possessive for him, dominating Salima and controlling his brain(initial episodes) and his harem activities which is absolutely fiction! Akbar had spent most of his youth on battlefields and planning to conquer Hindustan, he had quite high libido in his twenties and hence I somewhere doubt Ruqaiya was his bestest friend...some writers/historians/travellers claim Salima was his wife+friend+advisor...

But it was just one novel anyway. What do the various books talk of Akbar-MUZ relation? As glorious as portrayed here?

Well, I've read she was his beloved and Amer Family his closest ...He albeit treated his 3 consorts equally but he had most of his children from her and she had influence over him...he built palaces for her wherever he shifted his court..when I visited FS we were told only MUZ had permission to stay in his private chambers and there was a passage connecting her palace to his apartments!...I think the show is going on the right track considering their relationship...

P.S : @ Sandhya and all.. Please do share your info if it contradicts what I've read up till now...I would love to read you all  :) 


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Re: The realisation

Post by yagavarthini on 2014-02-08, 14:53

thanks for the info especially this part hug1 

Well, I've read she was his beloved and Amer Family his closest ...He albeit treated his 3 consorts equally but he had most of his children from her and she had influence over him...he built palaces for her wherever he shifted his court..when I visited FS we were told only MUZ had permission to stay in his private chambers and there was a passage connecting her palace to his apartments!...I think the show is going on the right track considering their relationship...

I had been searching info on this but  a BIG TQ for your research
it is a most valued info for all of our Dhwani members study

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Re: The realisation

Post by Reavathy on 2014-02-08, 18:49

Neha! Fantastic research :)  I always like your knowledge in hisgtory and giving us the facts!!! :) 

I read in one novel that the misunderstanding between Ruq & Akbar was something to do with Meena Bazaar!!! But it was just stated that when Mehrunisa as lady-in-waiting wanted to go for Meena Bazaar, she was not given permission by the widow queen of Akbar.
The name of the queen they mentioned as Fatima and not Ruq. So I am confused!!! Rolling Eyes

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Re: The realisation

Post by Reavathy on 2014-02-08, 19:01

Sandhya! Very nice post!!!

 cheers

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Re: The realisation

Post by sandhya on 2014-02-08, 19:27

Neha,

Actually what intrigues me about this whole affair is that if MUZ was indeed as influential as shown how is that history has completely forgotten about her till Ashutosh Gowarikar remembered her?

While Nurjahan and Mumtaz are remembered as their emperor's favourites, MUZ's mention is limited to her being Salim's mother till the movie/show came up. If it was MUZ who broadened his vision and ruled his heart why is that while the world remembers Chandragupta Maurya-Chanakya Ashoka-Kalinga, it doesn't remember Akbar-MUZ in the same vein or even their romance is not as fabled as PRC-Sanyogita, Shah JAhan-Mumtaz Caeser-Cleopatra?

In books and sites about Akbar I have come across so far, mention is made on all three of his begums in equal terms. Akbar has been mentioned to be under the influence of only BK initially and then MA for some time. But after that he was the master of himself. But like Ashoka, RajaRaja Chola, Akbar has always been mentioned as an achiever in his own right.

He might have liked his begums equally or with a preference to one, but I wonder if it could be called absolute influence or epic love. The Amer loyalty and Akbar's attachment to the Amer family is  pronounced in history. That added with MUZ being Salim's mother, might have raised her importance among the three and given her rights for farmaan as queen mothers usually are (Even HB, Mumtaz had the right, right?) . FS palace was built around the time when Salim was born, right?

I believe MUZ's speciality was that she carved a niche for herself in an alien atmosphere and retained her individuality.

Akbar, in reality would hardly have had the time to roam around and drool over any of his wives as shown in the show. He had such an action filled life and was on/off battlefields till his fifties and was busy with his administration, reformation, law-making, controlling revolts and with his interest in art, literature, music and his dear Navaratnas.

Ruqaiya was Babur's grand-daughter and Akbar's own cousin. Given Akbar's soft corner for his relatives, I wonder if she would ever have been sidelined. Her closeness to Salim and then Khurram doesn't indicate that. And Salima and Ruqaiya too are described as graceful, learned and dignified queens wherever I have read.

I am sad at the way Ruqaiya is portrayed in the show......surely not the way any queen born brought up and married into royalty would. To butcher a queen to highlight the lead pair is scandalous. Even Kaikeyi is not degraded thus in any version of the Ramayan. And I know they are not going to stop here. They will not rest till they make complete mincemeat of the character and bury her totally.

Akbar was certainly no one-woman man. He married even after Jodha. I was surprised at the CVs attempt to indicate that aspect in the last 3 episodes. 'Yeh Zindagi sirf aapki' and 'Wish you hadn't left a gap between us for anyone between us'. The more the show proceeds, I wish to completely dissociate it from history and think of it as some raja-rani story.

Of course my pov.

PS: Did MUZ convert when Salim was born? Any idea? Was the title bestowed on her inspite of retaining her religion?


Last edited by sandhya on 2014-02-08, 19:51; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The realisation

Post by sandhya on 2014-02-08, 19:27

Reavathy wrote:Sandhya! Very nice post!!!

 cheers
Thank You Revathy. :)

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Re: The realisation

Post by candy on 2014-02-08, 19:48

Sandhya... This is maiyya's version of JA.. the final point Wat u told in the earlier one is correct., this story is of a raja-rani, just like we read in fiction story books. Not tat of our Akbar - the Great..
am sorry to say this but., its just like other daily soaps., with a different atmosphere, attires and it can't be tagged as history portraying show .
the oly advantage is we are able to discuss abt the actual history and when u and our other friends provide some historical info ,ppl like me are able to gain some knowledge .. Wink

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Re: The realisation

Post by sandhya on 2014-02-08, 19:54

candy wrote:Sandhya... This is maiyya's version of JA..   the final point Wat u told in the earlier one is correct., this story is of a raja-rani, just like we read in fiction story books.   Not tat of our Akbar - the Great..
    am sorry to say this but., its just like other daily soaps., with a different  atmosphere, attires and it can't be tagged as history portraying show .
   the oly advantage is we are able to discuss abt the actual history and when u and our other friends provide some historical info ,ppl like me are able to gain some knowledge ..  Wink
Candy,
True, what you said!
The problem here is that Maiyya's team has mixed facts and fiction so well that it is difficult to separate the two. When we come across some fact when we read a book or visit the site we will also tend to believe the masala fiction that is blended with it.  No

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Re: The realisation

Post by candy on 2014-02-08, 20:32

sandhya.. Tats their talent.. this is Wat they want.when its a total fiction it will gain controversies.. but as per this trick , many un aware ppl will still believe Wat they show..
so, its a calculated screen play isn't. WinkWink

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Re: The realisation

Post by neha on 2014-02-09, 11:21

sandhya wrote:Neha,

Actually what intrigues me about this whole affair is that if MUZ was indeed as influential as shown how is that history has completely forgotten about her till Ashutosh Gowarikar remembered her?

While Nurjahan and Mumtaz are remembered as their emperor's favourites, MUZ's mention is limited to her being Salim's mother till the movie/show came up. If it was MUZ who broadened his vision and ruled his heart why is that while the world remembers Chandragupta Maurya-Chanakya Ashoka-Kalinga, it doesn't remember Akbar-MUZ in the same vein or even their romance is not as fabled as PRC-Sanyogita, Shah JAhan-Mumtaz Caeser-Cleopatra?

Sandhya, actually NJ and MT never really kept them behind purdah. These two persian Aunt-Niece successfully kept their respective husbands under their control! which was not in the case of Akbar. Akbar never really liked his lady interfering in politics, he did take advice from them. But would you believe Salima Sultan used to issue farman using Akbar's mohar on court matters when he was far away in Deccan crushing the revolt ? The only difference is she never came out of the purdah and sat on the Shahi Takht like Noor Jehan. And would you believe MUZ had more property than the then King of England ? She once addressed a unit of Army which was under her control ? These two ladies were as powerful as NJ and Mumtaz but they never believed in crossing their husband and Akbar did not like anything written on the royal ladies. And it is also true that Ruqaiya was given the Agra household to take care of..In short she did take care of Harem. Most of the evidences were destroyed by Aurangzeb but it does not mean they are totally vanished, it is quite hard to gather all those chronicals now. Badayuni, mentioned the influence the Rajput Princess had on Akbar. He actually mentioned Akbar's Rajput wife/wives were very much possessive of him  :P  Akbar was a wise man...he himself broaden his views, it will be wrong to give full credit to any of his Navaratnas or his wives for it. But these people were integral part of his development into a liberal king.

In books and sites about Akbar I have come across so far, mention is made on all three of his begums in equal terms. Akbar has been mentioned to be under the influence of only BK initially and then MA for some time. But after that he was the master of himself. But like Ashoka, RajaRaja Chola, Akbar has always been mentioned as an achiever in his own right.

Yes thats totally and unarguably true! This man changed himself and his vision over the course of time and hence he was Great  :)  and that's why he is one of the few kings who received the title "The Great"

He might have liked his begums equally or with a preference to one, but I wonder if it could be called absolute influence or epic love. The Amer loyalty and Akbar's attachment to the Amer family is  pronounced in history. That added with MUZ being Salim's mother, might have raised her importance among the three and given her rights for farmaan as queen mothers usually are (Even HB, Mumtaz had the right, right?) . FS palace was built around the time when Salim was born, right?

I would not call it absolute influence but the influence was there according to some writers/historians/travellers.  She had her own palace in Agra fort which was built around 1563-1564 ,before Salim's birth. This privilege used to be given only to the Royal ladies that means to consorts of Humayun (Haji Begum and Mariam Makani) and the Shehzadi's of House of Timur (Ruqaiya and Salima), but she was given it that means she was "Khaas" before Salim's birth too!  It is not clear since when she started issuing farmaan.

I believe MUZ's speciality was that she carved a niche for herself in an alien atmosphere and retained her individuality.

Akbar, in reality would hardly have had the time to roam around and drool over any of his wives as shown in the show. He had such an action filled life and was on/off battlefields till his fifties and was busy with his administration, reformation, law-making, controlling revolts and with his interest in art, literature, music and his dear Navaratnas.

That's true to some extent but he did not go on battlefields for every war and every revolt his Sultanate faced. I don't remember the exact number but there were around 140-150 revolts during his entire reign! and he himself went to crush very few of these revolts. He was indeed busy in administration but we can not assume he had no time for his wives and children, his two daughters grew up under his care.

Ruqaiya was Babur's grand-daughter and Akbar's own cousin. Given Akbar's soft corner for his relatives, I wonder if she would ever have been sidelined. Her closeness to Salim and then Khurram doesn't indicate that. And Salima and Ruqaiya too are described as graceful, learned and dignified queens wherever I have read.

He indeed had soft corner for his relatives but he did not forgive them easily when they revolted and rebelled against him or did something which was unethical according to him. He ordered to kill his uncle(Hamida Banu's brother) when the later killed his wife mercilessly and her relatives complained to him. Same with Sharifuddin, he ordered to kill him after forgiving him 3 times. Mirza Hakim and Adham Khan's chapter is well known to everyone I guess. Ruqaiya was not sidelined as an Empress but that author claims Akbar stopped visiting her palace as a husband, hence I cannot comment on it as I don't know if it was at all true. She had a very good rapport with Salima Sultan and Salim and it does not have anything to do with the so called coldness she and Akbar had.

I am sad at the way Ruqaiya is portrayed in the show......surely not the way any queen born brought up and married into royalty would. To butcher a queen to highlight the lead pair is scandalous. Even Kaikeyi is not degraded thus in any version of the Ramayan. And I know they are not going to stop here. They will not rest till they make complete mincemeat of the character and bury her totally.

Akbar was certainly no one-woman man. He married even after Jodha. I was surprised at the CVs attempt to indicate that aspect in the last 3 episodes. 'Yeh Zindagi sirf aapki' and 'Wish you hadn't left a gap between us for anyone between us'. The more the show proceeds, I wish to completely dissociate it from history and think of it as some raja-rani story.

Of course my pov.

This is a show (80% fiction + 20% facts) which needs a Vamp, Mahaan heroin and a One woman man to gain TRPs  :P  :P 

PS: Did MUZ convert when Salim was born? Any idea? Was the title bestowed on her inspite of retaining her religion?

I'm trying to find out answer of this question from past 1-2 years, but I've failed in my every attempt to gather any such official document which states her conversion  :P  ...She was buried according to Muslim rituals so maybe she was converted(I'm not sure here). I'm skeptical whether the title had anything to do with her religion. She had one more title "Wali Nimat" apart from MUZ.


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Re: The realisation

Post by Reavathy on 2014-02-09, 11:41

Neha!!! Fantastic Research!!!  Thumbsup 

Though I do not have any official records, with the help of google I can give you the follg. facts!!!

Regarding MUZ title, the title was given to her when she gave birth to Salim ... (this was written by most of the historians).  Though she remained a Hindu throughout her life, she was buried according to Islamic custom, near her husband's mausoleum.
Akbar's other hindu wives were not given any such title and all had freedom to follow their religion. I think MUZ title given to her as she gave birth to Salim - the Royal heir!!!

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Re: The realisation

Post by neha on 2014-02-09, 11:56

Reavathy wrote:Neha!!! Fantastic Research!!!  Thumbsup 

Though I do not have any official records, with the help of google I can give you the follg. facts!!!

Regarding MUZ title, the title was given to her when she gave birth to Salim ... (this was written by most of the historians).  Though she remained a Hindu throughout her life, she was buried according to Islamic custom, near her husband's mausoleum.
Akbar's other hindu wives were not given any such title and all had freedom to follow their religion. I think MUZ title given to her as she gave birth to Salim - the Royal heir!!!

Yes that's true! She was given the title MUZ after Salim's birth but do you know any title given to Ruqaiya Sultan and Salima Sultan ? I want to know if any of these two were given any title during their lifetime or posthumously.
Acct Akbar's descendants had given title to their wives (Jehangir, ShahJahan and Aurangzeb) but I have till date found about only Heera Kunwari's title.

P.S : Sandhya's beautiful post is now turned into a discussion thread  :P :P 

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Re: The realisation

Post by sandhya on 2014-02-09, 17:02

I love it and take it as a compliment.  :) After all, it is dear Akbar who is discussed. Embarassed 
Thanks for the info Neha. :) 

I believe Jodha's palaces in FS and Agra was also the place where Akbar's other Hindu wives stayed. Akbar was a smart fellow. He avoided domestic hassles as much as possible so that he could concentrate on his sultanate. Having them  in a separate palace would have prevented many complaints on issues of religious practices from either sides. :) (Who knows there might have been complaints of her bhajans and bhaashans  and Akbar decided to put her separately). 
ROFL 


Even I have read that Jodha commanded a cavalry and Salima could also issue farmans. But Ruqaiya is always cited as his chief consort in whatever I have read and the other two as his other khaas begums.

Aurangazeb may have destroyed info on his Hindu ancestors. But that period called 'ReetiKaal and 'Bhakti Kaal' was the most productive period in literature to date and if indeed there was such a fantastic love story of such spectacular proportions, there must be something about it somewhere atleast as a quotation or comparison anywhere else. I still believe that the concept of  Hindu Princess making a place for herself as one of the three special queens of a Mughal Emperor is material enough for any writer. Why is that before Ashutosh Gowariker and Ekta Maiyya nobody remembered it? May be there was love but not to the extent that out EK is making a pulao of.

That Ruq-Akbar coldness was from just one novel you say. So we can discount it. There are worse info on MUZ-Akbar relations. Ruqaiya is in no way my favourite but Akbar is. I wouldn't want to believe that he can forsake an old relations for the sake of a new one.

Ruqaiya was an Empress in her own right and vamping her has lost the credibility of the show on history............anyway they have their disclaimer and we have our knowledge on 80% and 20% formula. Am really enjoying the raja-rani story and rajat-pari chemistry.

As for our Akbar I'd rather go back to books.

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Re: The realisation

Post by neha on 2014-02-09, 17:46

Yes me too still sticked to the show only because of my childhood love for Akbar The Great Twisted Evil Twisted Evil  
I personally do not believe in this so called bitterness in Ruq-Akbar relationship. I just thought Ekta might use this to degrade Begum Ruqaiya Sultan more so that she becomes a total vamp in show :P 
There were several other palaces for lower ranked wives in Agra fort, the MUZ palace which I mentioned earlier totally belonged to her, even Ruq, Salima, Hamida had their own palaces in the same Agra fort. Acct I'm reading JahangirNama now ..he mentioned his marriages, his TulaBharam and other grand ceremonies + rituals @ MUZ's palace. The Allahabad fort (which I visited some years back on my North India trip) has only MUZ's palace and not that of Ruq, Salima which made me think she was given slightly more preference over the others. Truth is he treated them equally in terms of power, now we don't know exactly what happened in their personal life hence people like Ashutosh + Ekta has successfully done Kachra of Akbar's personal life and it irritates me more than anything else Evil or Very Mad 
This was the era for which most of the foreign authors + Historians criticise Indian Rulers + society for the destruction of the most of the monuments + political documents. They clearly make fun of the passive negligence showed in saving these valuable writings of various historians of various rulers which was due to the decay of Mughal empire after Aurangzeb's death and the consequent growth of mushroom powers which quickly deprived the documents in the imperial and viceregal secretariats of their value for practical, material purposes.
At the end of the day we have no option but to enjoy the show which I'm now enjoying to the fullest  :)  !! Whole credit goes to Rajat and Paridhi  cheers 

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Re: The realisation

Post by sandhya on 2014-02-10, 00:05

Exactly Neha

I don't care for Akbar-MUZ romance any more. The concept of  Hindu Princess making a place for herself as one of the three special queens of a Mughal Emperor is fascinating enough for anyone to make stories out of. Even monuments are renamed for fancy and impressions. Even the documented aspects of history are distorted. So why worry about his wives who are not documented much?

But from all Akbar's achievements I don't think he was a lover boy like his grandson. His sense of justice and equality that he has shown among his diverse subjects only make me think that he would have treated all his 3 khaas begums equally.

Akbar to me is always an achiever, a fabulous warrior, a visionary much ahead of his times, an able administrator, a shrewd politician, and a GREAT king our country was blessed with.

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Re: The realisation

Post by bhavisweet on 2014-02-10, 00:51

Thnx sandhya

nice post :)

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Re: The realisation

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